Gamifying Cairo’s Advanced Learning with Node Guardians – Community Call #54

Hector Roussille:
Very much doing good. And you?
Robert Kodra:
Super excited for this session, and yeah, I think we can get started with the few Q&As from my end, and if the public has any questions, feel free to address them. But let’s start with the general question. What is Node Guardians?
Sam:
I’ll take it. [inaudible 00:01:18], everyone. Thanks for having us by the way. I am Sam, and I work on Node Guardians. Node Guardians is basically, it’s a tool to onboard developers on credible ecosystems. It looks like a role-playing game, but instead of hacking and slashing with your mouse and keyboard and killing the monsters, you need to write code to solve, capture the flag, programming challenges, you name it. You solve the challenges and you get credentials in returns and skills along the way that are supposed to help you reach a meaningful outcome. Our goal is to make the process as fun as possible basically.
Robert Kodra:
Great. Awesome. Now, follow-up questions, how the journey started for Node Guardians. How the whole journey started from the beginning? What were some key challenges as well that you encountered?
Sam:
All right. Before Node Guardians, my team and I were doing a lot of grants for different protocols, I guess, and we kind of noticed that there was a lack for content that caters to intermediate to advanced developers. That was the first observation. And there was a lack of interactive content, a lot of the writing out there, but there wasn’t that much content that is actually offering a certain level of interactivity. And I was thinking about what to do next with my teammates and I was like, “Let’s do something that’s actually market-fit that has a positive impact in the space and that is framed into something that we actually love.” That is to say video games, role-playing games to be more accurate.
And so, the blend of all these ideas led to that very exotic final product, which is Node Guardians, something that is supposed to address that critical need protocols have, while being fun to use and being fun to design to a certain extent. Bryan and Hector have no choice but to say that we all have fun in this company. It’s great. They have all of their hair left, which suggests that they have an amazing treatment among us. So, I think that’s pretty much it when it comes to the genesis story of Node Guardians. A role playing game to onboard developers in Web3. I don’t like that term, but yeah. [inaudible 00:03:42].
Robert Kodra:
Got it. Any notes from Hector and Bryan? How was your journey so far with Node Guardians? Blink twice if you need help.
Sam:
It’s a premiere. I’m just going to add that real quick. I think it’s the first time that we’re all on the call with our… That they have some kind of podcast where they actually disclose themselves. Enjoy it, guys, because these guys are doing all the heavy lifting. They’re much sharper than me, so I’m really happy that they have the bandwidth now to speak.
Hector Roussille:
I’ll let you start, Bryan. [inaudible 00:04:28].
Bryan:
No, not much honestly. Just good vibes. I think, in general, the team is quite proud of what we have built over the past, say, two years. I think what we have built is something, I wouldn’t say it’s the most fantastic thing, but I would say it’s different from what I usually see in different educational platforms. I think we have our own distinct flavor and flair when it comes to doing things, and it’s something that we all take pride in.
Hector Roussille:
Yeah, completely agree. I just wanted to add that we are also starting to see some success stories, I would say. Some of our users that managed to get good position here and there, and they claim that it’s partly because of NG. It feels really good, and every time we share this kind of stories between us, so another kind of pride is the product. We like the product, and it seems that users are liking the product and that it’s useful to them. So, very, very good for everyone, I suppose.
Bryan:
Yeah.
Robert Kodra:
Yeah. What I can add as a user from my point of view, I know I tried Node Guardians last year at EthCC. Back then, there was a CTF announced, and honestly, the whole gamification of solving the puzzles and the challenges are amazing. It’s fun to work on them but also work together with the team on these challenges. And yeah, I think the gamification of it, it’s quite nice. Also, we can get into some of the details of the rewards you get if you solve them. But mainly, I guess, my first question would be on this is what are some key challenges when you’re trying to gamify a particular quest or campaign? What would you find it’s great to do? What are some difficult things to do?
Bryan:
Maybe I can take this one. I think it’s an interesting question. I think the problem crops up when we first tackle a language in general. I think that when you teach any programming language, it is quite difficult to scale it in a sense that, say, you teach Rust versus Cairo, there are a lot of similarities such that if you create content for Rust, it’s easy to end up creating content for Cairo that’s very similar to Rust. And because it’s difficult to discern between the two types of content, it’s not interesting to the user to do both.
In that sense, I think the main challenge lies in creating content that is fun, and we do have tricks to do it. I’m sure our users will know. We try to embed storylines or embed little esoteric challenges into our quests so as to not make the learning dry. Yeah. I generally think that is the number one struggle you might have after designing five or six quests. But yeah, I would say we still have our ways. Yeah.
Robert Kodra:
Great. Thank you. Anything else, Hector, you might want to add?
Hector Roussille:
I’m less involved than Bryan in quest creation. I usually follow his lead. Just wanted to add that sometimes we also came across, we’re just asking a question between us playing with Solidity, and we came across some very weird stuff and we created a new quest out of it. There’s also some quests that just come out of nowhere, I would say, and are pretty good. But most of them, yeah, we have to work on designing the quest, the lore, the art, and as Bryan said, trying to always keep it fun, enjoyable so that users don’t jump out from it and from NG.
Sam:
Bryan is the game master. Hector is being a bit shy and humble. He’s also been implementing a few challenges. But yeah, I think Bryan said pretty much everything in regards to the hurdles, the challenges that we encounter when trying to make new stacks. Actually, fun to learn, to master, breaking them into… More or like abstracting the complexity of certain concepts into steps that are actually intuitive to solve to a certain extent, yet challenging, complex, dozing everything.
And in order to achieve that kind of balance, we also need to have a specific pipeline. I mean, like most products do, we don’t just send challenges to production immediately. It goes through basically game testing. We have a few weeks of beta tests with our users to ensure that the quest is intelligible, fun to solve to a certain extent, and then we just adjust the difficulty accordingly and the whole experience. We try to be very careful with that.
Bryan:
Maybe I can give some more concrete examples in the context of Cairo. Right now, in our existing Cairo challenges, there’s one which I think is pretty popular, where you implement a Brainfuck compiler on the Cairo VM. I think that’s pretty fun. Our introductory quest, I say introductory because it’s still a bit difficult even at an introductory level. Our introductory Cairo quests also involve classical programming challenges, but there’s a little quiz where it requires you to understand Cairo’s immutable memory model to actually solve the challenges.
I don’t know how much I can say, but in the future, we are currently working on some sort of CTF-like adventure where you deal with different, quote, unquote, vulnerabilities on contracts as you are sort of doing this dungeon crawling adventure. I can’t say much now because it’s still in the works, but yeah, things like that to make learning Cairo fun. Yeah.
Robert Kodra:
Yeah, sounds super exciting and I’m looking forward to more alpha on that. One note on the Brainfuck VM, the name definitely stands by itself, because I did try that particular exercise and was quite challenging and fun. Hopefully, for the listeners, they also try it as well and solve it and get some rewards out of it. I think in mid-March, you announced that the beta stage is finally over for Node Guardians. First, I would like to congratulate your team for achieving this achievement. And on this point, what changes have been made throughout the process, what new features have been introduced to Node Guardians?
Sam:
Hector, you want to take it?
Hector Roussille:
Yeah. Technically speaking for… Not really technically. For users, we added something to take the gamification even further with achievements. Now, the different progress that you can do in Solidity or Cairo, or just playing with items, playing with the platform can grant you specific achievements that will be… They can be fairly common or extremely rare, just depend on what you do. Some of them are very specific for doing a very hard quest. We have some for [inaudible 00:12:36] DVM and stuff like this. We also completely revamped the item system, so it’s easier for users to get the items they want to get and to have the character look really, really cool. We also added a bunch of new items compared to what we had before.
At the technical level also, the front end was completely revamped. Brand new architecture, everything is smoother, everything should work nicer, be faster. Yeah, it was really deep rework of the front end, deep rework of the approach to gamification, trying to maximize enjoyability from users, and retention through those achievements, new rewards, new items. Also, we are starting to support new languages, like Harth, we also have Noir, and we can now iterate and add new content easier, I would say.
Robert Kodra:
Great. Yeah, definitely a lot of changes have been made. I know initially last year, there was more of you were earning the coins and then you could unlock chests and then you would get the items. And now, it’s a whole different process. I think we also have a skill tree that seems interesting with four different categories. The battle mage, the defender, ranger, and scholar. And then in each of them, you can associate a certain skill point and then you can get the highest tier equipment as well.
Hector Roussille:
Yeah, I forgot to mention that. But yeah, items are now conditioned partly on achievements, partly on the skill tree. So, you have to progress to the game to get the items you want, but you don’t have to pray to the random gods to get the item you want in the test anymore. You know what you have to do if you want to get this specific item.
Robert Kodra:
Sounds fair. Yeah, definitely. The new look on the items are looking really cool, and if you’re having the latest tier, you can show off to your friends what equipment you have on your character. Also an interesting aspect, I think, I’m not entirely sure if this is already implemented but maybe in the future, there was a mention of a leaderboard and a hall of fame. Maybe someone can discuss about this.
Sam:
It’s been achieved internally. It’s partially live, I would say. I think Hector described a few of the new features that have been introduced by this update and the tweaks. If I share the screen, I’ll be able to show what I’m exactly talking about here but we just introduced a new game mode recently called Gas Optimization, Gas Golfing, and you do have leaderboards now. 10 best solvers, so people who have the most optimal solution to the problem are displayed and then that creates an interesting dynamic where people want to stay in that top 10 in that display page.
For now, we have leaderboard on these Gas Golfing challenges. And as we are satisfied with our broader leaderboard, hall of fame, I think we’ll be rolling out something out pretty soon that will create some very expressive, very, I guess, visual and nice-to-check interface representing someone’s progress in the game and achievements overall.
So, we’re getting there. We’re just sometimes scratching our heads a bit too much in order to make sure that we ship something that the community will appreciate. But yeah, it’s coming pretty soon. But for now, you can find leaderboards on our latest challenge, which is the Fal Aran Gas Golfing campaign on the first challenge as a leaderboard. Yeah, I invite you to check it out. Yeah.
Robert Kodra:
Great. For our viewers, I’m pasting the link for Node Guardians if you want to try it out. There’s the link, and then you can also follow them on Twitter to see the latest development there. Now, I think going back a little bit on the items, I know there’s a lot of items in the game or Node Guardians, but there’s some rare items as well. Namely, I think on Noir, you have something like Sunshard. Is there something like that on the Cairo side, or will there be something like that?
Sam:
You guys want to take it?
Bryan:
Maybe I can take this one. Generally, yeah, it is true that we do have items for… We do have an array of items, and these items, they all have a story in our in-game universe. Say you complete a very difficult quest in, say, Nor, or, say, we have this campaign called Get Rekt, which is based on past historical exploits that we kind of spin off from. Say you do these hard quests, you will get sort of unique legendary items they can equip your avatar with, but we treat Cairo differently.
To us, Cairo is a whole language, and because it’s a whole language, we give it a whole region in our in-game universe. Because of that, it’s not just one item, we have a whole armor set. Or rather in the future a set of armor sets. But yeah, if you look at the website now, you look at the avatar preview or you can see that we have Egyptian-inspired armor, weapons, and things like that just for Cairo. So if you successfully do enough Cairo quests, you can purchase these items, and if you successfully do enough hard Cairo quests, you can upgrade them to a legendary level. Yeah, this is the proof-of-skill thing we have or proof-of-time spent on the platform that we have implemented.
Robert Kodra:
Awesome. Yeah, definitely interested in the current armor set for the Cairo developers are definitely looking great, and I think the different tier levels as well. It makes it even more for the solvers or the, how to say, high wages to achieve those items as well. Yeah. I think I have one more question, and this was also regarding a recent announcement you have about the new partnership with OnlyDust. Could you tell us what it is and what would be the benefits for the Cairo developers with this partnership?
Sam:
Yeah, sure thing. I think it’s interesting to cover one principle in the Node Guardians platform. We’re not really into directly issuing funding to people who complete something on the platform, because we strongly believe that this might change the relationship that people have with the actual Node Guardians. Yeah, platform as a whole, so we’re trying to be very cautious with that. But we want value for people that spend their time on the platform, learn things on the platform. We want to make sure that they can leverage or reap the benefits of the time they spend on the platform.
There’s some kind of interesting thing here. If you complete Cairo quest on Node Guardians, that suggests that you understand a thing or two on a specific design pattern or a specific aspect of stack, and that you’re more likely to ship safer production code or code in general. So if you have a certain level of progress on Cairo, with Cairo Node Guardians, you can actually get a small bonus on the rewards that you get on only when you contribute to open source missions basically.
OnlyDust gets, let’s say, a higher level, a contributor that’s more skilled to a certain extent and better contributions, which will benefit to its prospects. And folks have fun learning new things hopefully, and they can get more value doing something that they eventually like or doing something that has to do with Cairo. So, like in DeFi, they say 3,3, but I’m shivering saying that. I have some PTSD. But it’s some kind of alignment that we have here. I’ll stop with the sketchy semantics, but this is pretty much what the partnership is about, and we hope to broaden it with different flavors in the future, but each thing in its own time.
Robert Kodra:
Got it. Exciting news then. Yeah, looking forward to the new flavors that will be coming to Node Guardians and new challenges on the Cairo side as well. We do have a question from Kubi, and it’s regarding the items that we mentioned. The question is, are those items NFTs or how or where are they stored currently?
Hector Roussille:
I will take it. Right now, no, they’re not NFTs. Right now, they’re stored in the Node Guardian database. We have designs ready to make them NFTs in the future. We’re just not rushing this for now, but it’s definitely something we talked about, something that several users actually already asked us if it could be taken on chain. So, it’s something we may actually be doing this year. Right now, it’s not the case. Right now, they’re not NFTs, but the designs are somewhat ready for it. So, we may be going in this direction.
Sam:
It’s a decentralized database on GCP. It’s very credible actually. You’ll be surprised. Highlight notes, you name it.
Hector Roussille:
Everyone [inaudible 00:22:45] it.
Sam:
I’d like to greet the community and Kubi as well. He was a nice folk I’ve had the chance to meet in the past. Good to see you here.
Robert Kodra:
Awesome. Great. He says thanks a lot for elaborating, so thank you. Thank you for responding to a question. I think if you want, we can get into the demo to see the platform in action. So, I’ll give you share access.
Sam:
Bryan, you should beat this.
Robert Kodra:
Are we doing a speed run of one of the favorite challenges?
Hector Roussille:
I was actually about to present, but if you want to do it-
Sam:
Oh yeah, oh yeah. [inaudible 00:23:34].
Bryan:
This is no rehearsal. Yeah, you go ahead, Hector.
Hector Roussille:
Okay. Okay. [inaudible 00:23:41] mechanism.
Robert Kodra:
We have consensus.
Sam:
Exactly. Exactly.
Hector Roussille:
And share. Okay. Do you guys see my screen?
Robert Kodra:
Yes.
Sam:
We share the screen, not the sequencer, guys. Never.
Hector Roussille:
Okay. Everyone can see Node Guardians?
Robert Kodra:
We can.
Hector Roussille:
Okay. Great. Okay. We’re going to take an example. First, this is a platform for people who don’t know about it yet, that your landing page, so you have news, new quest, new content always displayed there, and you can get a list of everything if you want. We’re starting to have quite a bit of content actually, all of that. All of those include art, they include law. Bryan did an amazing work on most of them also with the art team, Julius, Adam, and everyone. So yeah, everything is tailor-made and you have some content for different languages. It can be Solidity, it could be Cairo, it could be Harth.
Here, I’m just going to take an example. If we filter for Cairo, this is the Cairo content that we have currently. As Bryan said, we have the items are like Egyptian-style. All the quests also match this design. So, this graphic, all the graphics are like Egyptian [inaudible 00:25:06]. Yeah. This is the content we have. We can also bundle some quests into campaigns. So for Cairo, once again, we actually have, for now, two campaigns. So, Bad Accounts, those one is CTF, geared towards account abstraction, what are the dos and the don’ts of account abstraction on Cairo.
And Thinking in Cairo, this one is a campaign that’s more for learning Cairo through various design patterns. It’s actually the third quest of it, which is Racing Riverboats. That’s the ones that I’m going to showcase now to show you how it works when you try to solve the build quest. But just before that, I just want to note, hey, I’m talking about build quests. We actually have three types of quests. There’s a build. Those ones, you will download some code that we prepare. We prepare everything. You have the test, you have boilerplate code, and you will have to implement some specifications if you want. We can actually start if you want to see the inside up.
This is the lore with a bit of art. You have this for every single quest. And then, you get into the technical part. This one is basically about how to cross a river that’s full of crocodiles, how to do it safely. To do it safely, you have to implement some Cairo code to identify where the risky zones, and in the end, how to cross the river. So, you have some specifications, some examples of what to do. Then, we tell you your task again, and you will always find, for build quests, the command to test everything. So if you want to start this, you can do quest find. It’s with the CLIs that we provide. You can go here and you do quest find, and quest is called Racing Riverboats. If I write it good, it’s better. Yes. Sorry, I did a little mistake.
Okay. We can download the quest, and now, the CLI will tell you instantly where you have to go. So, we can go into campaigns, Cairo Thinking, Racing Riverboats. And if you open your code editor, you can always find it there. If you go to Cairo Thinking and Racing Riverboats, you have the boilerplate code. So, hey, you have to implement this. This would be with the specs that I showed before. You have also boilerplate code, other stuff to implement. And all the tests are already present, so you can run quest test to have some pre-made test. Some are passing by default, some are not. You have to preserve the ones that are passing and you have to make the failing one. You have to make them work basically. So, this is the build quest.
Just in the interest of time, I will put the right solution already there and do a submission just to show you what looks like. If I do this, and now, I can retest everything and everything is good. Now, you’re basically ready to submit on the website. You always have the results here. This one wasn’t working before, and now, I’m going to do another submission. So, I just do a quest submit. Finished Racing Riverboats. You have to have some familiarity with Git, but as soon as you have this, you can get into it.
So, everything has been [inaudible 00:28:56]. It should be picked up by the website automatically. That’s what’s going on here. Now, our servers are verifying everything, including some private tests so that you guys don’t hardcode solution for public tests. We just make sure that everything is good. And automatically, you have everything and you will also receive your achievements for different quests and different kind of content. You will get different kind of achievements.
This is a build quest, so you really have to walk-
Sam:
So, this is the real [inaudible 00:29:21].
Hector Roussille:
Yeah, this is the production stuff. This is an example for build quest, so developing with your ID on locally and then submitting your cards through GitHub. But as I said, we also have different kind of quests, so I can filter. We have CTF. Those ones are always on chain. So if we stick to Cairo CTF, we have this request of Bad Accounts. As I said, they are tailored for account abstraction. So, you will deploy some contracts, if you go there, for every CTF quest at the bottom. You have the contracts that you will have to understand, maybe figure out some vulnerability, and implement a way to hack them.
You will have to do all of that on chain, so you still have specification, description, what you have to do. In this specific contract, you have to set an isOpen variable to two, and at the bottom, you can deploy your contract. So, you log in with, it could be a Braavos [inaudible 00:30:22], whatever wallet you like, and then you deploy your contract. When it’s deployed, it’s on chain and you have to hack it. And whenever you feel like, you can click verify just to tell our server to verify if you actually solved it or not. So, CTF quests are fully on chain.
And you have a last type of content, which is theory agnostic. Theory. Those ones are going to be more like quiz about different topics. So, you have the quiz here. You have all the time. You have a lot of texts, a lot of content, some links pointing you to relevant documentation and references just to explain your topic. And then, you have a bunch of questions on the topic. This one is Elliptic Curve, but we have some for decentralization and menus, Web3 topics. As Sam said, we implemented the last game mode, which is the new one, which is Gas Golfing. This one is purely Solidity, but just about being the best optimizer. I can actually show the leaderboard that we were talking about before. It’s just about being the best optimizer for very simple task.
This one, for instance, is just removing duplicate value in an array, and you can do your submission and redo it when you find an improvement. And if you’re good enough, you can make your way into the leaderboard that’s updated in live. Yeah, pure vanity, pure optimization. It’s very often a pretty bad-looking code, but it works very, very well and it consumes very, very little gas. If that’s what you’re into, you can go also into Gas Golfing mode, which is currently only Solidity, but we are going to discuss how to make it compatible with Cairo. Yeah, I would say that’s the platform for now. I can maybe show you quickly the characters also where you have your achievements, the skill trees that we talked about before.
As you progress through the content Node Guardian, you will get some skill points that you can spend in the skill tree. Through the skill tree, you get some of the requirements for items. So, we can go, if you want, in the inventory. Here, you see that we have a bunch of items. Some are unlockable, like this one. I can, because I do have this requirement, which is just a skill in the skill tree. And for some, I can’t. For instance, if I take the legendary version of this lantern, I can’t because I am missing this achievement. Yeah. So, you just progress through the content, try to get all the requirements for the items you want.
For instance, this is the top headset for Cairo. And the legendary version looks like this. You just have to have 30 skill points in Cairo and do Cairo build or CTF quest with difficulty level five, so it starts to be sales content. And if you have everything, then you can, for vanity, and you can flex in front of everyone showing that you do have those equipment. Which are, as Bryan said, some kind of proof of skill, because having them means that you solve some hard content in Node Guardian. Yeah, that’s it for now. I don’t know if there’s anything specific you want me to cover on the platform.
Robert Kodra:
From my point of view, I think you covered everything, like the introduction to challenges and how to navigate the platform. Honestly, what I can say is your character has really nice swag, so I’m jealous on that. I’m looking forward to achieve more swag as well. Is it true that if you unlock a certain level, you have a certain title, like a high mage or something like that?
Hector Roussille:
This is for Discord, yeah. Yeah. Automatically, I think it’s if you do one Solidity quest, you become a Solidity mage. If you do three, you become a Solidity high mage. We have something similar for Cairo. You used to have access to restricted Discord channels, but now, to emphasize discussion and exchange of information between users and help within the community, we just opened all the channels, but we kept the roles. You still get them, once again for vanity.
Robert Kodra:
Nice. Sorry, go ahead.
Sam:
No, no, please go ahead.
Robert Kodra:
No, I just wanted to say it’s really nice to have particular titles that users for the platform can achieve and strive for.
Sam:
It’s really part of the culture. Mage, high mages, and scholars are some of the titles that we have on the platform, and we’re trying to tie, not some status, but some rewards to this. I think it will eventually blossom in the future. But there’s an interesting aspect that hasn’t been covered in this demo is that should you really encounter an issue with a quest or you really need a hint, you can just go on Discord and ask your question. Someone from the community will eventually give you an answer. Or then, Hector or Bryan or someone else from the team will also be here to help you. Any engineer at Node Guardians is basically a customer support specialist as well. So, you’ll never walk alone. That’s one thing that’s cool to add here.
In regards to the theory, you might actually want to know more about Elliptic Curve Cryptography if you tackle the self-address challenge, for instance. So, they complete the practical selection of challenges that we have here. If you’re not familiar with certain concepts, we try to abstract them for you and give you the right luggage, the right tools to defeat the dragon here. That’s the idea. Yeah.
Robert Kodra:
Yeah, definitely. I think always start with the least difficulty or the least amount of sorts, and then slowly move up to slay more dragons or bigger dragons in that sense.
Sam:
Exactly.
Robert Kodra:
Awesome. I think we’re slowly reaching an end of our Community Call. If there are any closing remarks you guys want to make?
Sam:
Bryan, Hector, I’ll gladly take it.
Hector Roussille:
Yeah, I mean, just for anyone watching and discovering Node Guardian, you’re very welcome. As Sam said, hope you guys have fun with the challenges. If you feel stuck at any point in time, any day of the week, just send us a message. It’s all about learning and having a good time. So if we can help with that, just don’t hesitate.
Bryan:
Yeah, yeah. I would say we welcome Cairo developers of all levels. Say, you are relatively new to Cairo, you just completed [inaudible 00:37:27], I think Node Guardians is a great next step because the challenges are a bit more complex and we do have a pretty wholesome community that’s willing to help you, us included as well. This is pretty good vibes overall. Say, you are a beginner with zero experience in Cairo, eventually we will also bridge this missing gap right now where we’ll provide more beginner-friendly content.
Yeah, eventually, we will like Node Guardians to be a good place to start as well. Even for advanced Cairo developers, I do think there are some somewhat difficult challenges on the platform that doing it, you might learn a thing or two. Yeah.
Sam:
Great. They’ve said everything, and yeah, feel free to check it out, share your feedback as well. Yeah.
Robert Kodra:
Well then, Sam, Bryan, and Hector, thank you for being here. It was a wonderful experience and a pleasure to talk to you. To our viewers, thank you for joining on and tuning for the 54th Community Call. Don’t forget to try Node Guardians and achieve those rewards and equipment, and I’m wishing everybody a fantastic day. Thank you very much for listening.
Hector Roussille:
Thank you.
Sam:
Thanks for having us.
Bryan:
Thanks, everyone.
Sam:
And check out the Cairo book as well. Forgot to mention that.
Robert Kodra:
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.
Sam:
Yeah. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Robert Kodra:
Bye-bye.